Discorders should flag against blue pets.

[Eht/Longbow]

Now, if it is guard whackable i don't care, but they should be able to be attacked by my tamer if they discord my pets. Plain and simple. All I see is naked discoers sitting in the guard zone and running out real quick to discord a pet.

Even if I were to leave the guard zone, most often they are a red group's blue and will generally not be attacked by the reds because they are assisting them, and are often defended by the red group. Also if they leave the GZ and disco my pet, I can't attack them or I'll get a murder count, so they are getting away scott free.

Most everyone will agree this is an exploit and should be fixed, but when?

[AEowynSP]

Been asking the same question for 2 -3 years now.

[Littleblue]

/Signed.

[Surgeries]

I don't even PvP, but it does seem Ultra Lame to let this go one.

Ultra :lame:

[Dragkiris]

Keep your pets in tram where they belong?

[Viper09]

Tis lame indeed. I agree with you. Negative acts against a blue target should cause them to flag.

[Wenchkin]

Now, if it is guard whackable i don't care, but they should be able to be attacked by my tamer if they discord my pets. Plain and simple. All I see is naked discoers sitting in the guard zone and running out real quick to discord a pet.
Well at least the bard has the balls to leave the guardzone...

Even if I were to leave the guard zone, most often they are a red group's blue and will generally not be attacked by the reds because they are assisting them, and are often defended by the red group. Also if they leave the GZ and disco my pet, I can't attack them or I'll get a murder count, so they are getting away scott free.

Most everyone will agree this is an exploit and should be fixed, but when?

Here we go again. Tell me, because not one of your fellow Yew gate tamers has given me an answer to this, how does a player kill your tamer while they're in guardzone pinging pets onto the surrounding reds? Hmm?

Let me explain to folks how your "tactic" works and then we'll see how many really support your claim that these bards need the fix before you do.

*** You can sit inside the guardzone, effectively untouchable unless one of your targets gets a spell in before your pets eat them.

*** You're blue, so folks can't attack you inside the guardzone, and your pets are blue so if you pull those back they're safe too.

*** Your pets are able to attack players off-screen if necessary while you remain inside the guardzone. Still, nobody can attack you. Especially if you're like the other tamers I've seen who spam "guards" as often as "all kill".

The fact that all the Yew gate tamers complain solely about bards reflects that this is the only way of ensuring you take a risk by playing pet ping-pong at Yew gate. So let's stop calling bards exploiters when in all honesty the "tactics" of a Yew gate tamer are borderline exploitation themselves. They sure fly full in the face of any Fel ruleset. Bards are the only way to fight back against your antics, so either you come up with alternatives we can use if bards are nerfed or accept that risk. End of story.

Maybe if you fought outside the guardzone long enough you'd realise how risk free your "tactics" are and keep quiet before you get the nerf. Because unless you can be killed too it's not really PvP is it? More like P&PG - pet & player gank. Or player vs pet, because you aren't exactly in the thick of the fight standing safe in the guardzone, are you? You're the one who needs a nerf long before we change bards. And until you are nerfed the bards are the only suitable tactic folks can employ fighting you. So they stay just as they are until you understand what PvP in Fel is really about.

Wenchy

[Lynk]

Now, if it is guard whackable i don't care, but they should be able to be attacked by my tamer if they discord my pets. Plain and simple. All I see is naked discoers sitting in the guard zone and running out real quick to discord a pet.

Even if I were to leave the guard zone, most often they are a red group's blue and will generally not be attacked by the reds because they are assisting them, and are often defended by the red group. Also if they leave the GZ and disco my pet, I can't attack them or I'll get a murder count, so they are getting away scott free.

Most everyone will agree this is an exploit and should be fixed, but when?


Stop using Greater Drags at the yew gate as your exclusive PvP ability.

If there were no greater drags this wouldn't be an issue.

[Anakena]

Stop using Greater Drags at the yew gate as your exclusive PvP ability.

If there were no greater drags this wouldn't be an issue.


Please do not use "PvP" for describing what happens at Yew Gate. It is generally a fight between those having access to houses (reds/greys) and those in GZ (obviously blues).

Those having access to houses do not attack first, so they can run safely back to their safe haven, unless it is for ganking, while those hiding in GZ for the same reason do not attack until they think they can gank/dismount/kill the red/grey coming to close.

Deciding to fix or not to fix something should not be based on what happens there.

[Eht/Longbow]

Stop using Greater Drags at the yew gate as your exclusive PvP ability.

If there were no greater drags this wouldn't be an issue.

Actually you assume that's what I do, actually I use Mare and Beetle, or Mare and WW, Mare and Dread Warhorse. Matter of fact I use a Reptalon or a Purple Bunny on occasion too. Quit assuming I use a tamer just as a gank mechine, I generally don't even carry bolas, because I don't mind running you down with my Magery/Eval/Med.

Second point, are you just griefing my post or are you going to state an opinion?

I have run a tamer for over 4 years, I've earned the right to do what I want.

If I am on an Archer or a Swordsman and I get cursed I can attack the person cursing me, why can't I with a tamer against a discorder? I've invested over 300 points into this character in taming, why can't I defend myself against a curse?

If I am being stolen from they are not trying to kill me, but they still flag gray against me.

This is a bug plain and simple, a pretty bad one too. If you discorders are worried about getting killed discording then put stealth on your discorder and take a risk. I don't care, I just want to be able to retaliate.

[Eht/Longbow]

Well at least the bard has the balls to leave the guardzone...



Here we go again. Tell me, because not one of your fellow Yew gate tamers has given me an answer to this, how does a player kill your tamer while they're in guardzone pinging pets onto the surrounding reds? Hmm?

Let me explain to folks how your "tactic" works and then we'll see how many really support your claim that these bards need the fix before you do.

*** You can sit inside the guardzone, effectively untouchable unless one of your targets gets a spell in before your pets eat them.

*** You're blue, so folks can't attack you inside the guardzone, and your pets are blue so if you pull those back they're safe too.

*** Your pets are able to attack players off-screen if necessary while you remain inside the guardzone. Still, nobody can attack you. Especially if you're like the other tamers I've seen who spam "guards" as often as "all kill".

The fact that all the Yew gate tamers complain solely about bards reflects that this is the only way of ensuring you take a risk by playing pet ping-pong at Yew gate. So let's stop calling bards exploiters when in all honesty the "tactics" of a Yew gate tamer are borderline exploitation themselves. They sure fly full in the face of any Fel ruleset. Bards are the only way to fight back against your antics, so either you come up with alternatives we can use if bards are nerfed or accept that risk. End of story.

Maybe if you fought outside the guardzone long enough you'd realise how risk free your "tactics" are and keep quiet before you get the nerf. Because unless you can be killed too it's not really PvP is it? More like P&PG - pet & player gank. Or player vs pet, because you aren't exactly in the thick of the fight standing safe in the guardzone, are you? You're the one who needs a nerf long before we change bards. And until you are nerfed the bards are the only suitable tactic folks can employ fighting you. So they stay just as they are until you understand what PvP in Fel is really about.

Wenchy

First, I am not afraid to leave the GZ, I run a mage/tamer, and I can survive and get out of gank squads and fight along side anyone. I ride a reptalon or a mare so I can chase people down. Though I am not against using a GD on occasion too, I like to mix it up. I like to make choke points with my mage and use my pet to take out those pesky pot chugging dexxers that a lot of mages have trouble killing.

I have been in a fight with a mage, and two dexxers archer/poison fencer (I know he was a poisoner because I got hit with it) all these at the same time and survived, it just takes fast fingers and a strong constitution. BUT this one bug truly debilitates my template entirely, it makes things impossible, I can't even play and I can't defend against it, it takes all of the fun out of fighting and not being able to fight back.

It feels like this, say you are a gladiator, and you are going up against a fully decked out soldier armor, shield, sword, and all, even the wild tigers show up for a guest appearance. As you walk up to the entrance to the arena the guards say; ok we have to cut your arms off before you can go out to fight, and they do; two guys hold you down and cut your arms off, you scream and yell for the guards but they stand there and watch. Are we fighting a gladitorial battle or is this supposed to be as close to a fair fight as it can be?

[Wenchkin]

Ok, you have the balls to come out of GZ to fight, which does put you at risk. Fair enough :)

However, the guardzone trick is still alive and kicking. And the only counter attack someone can use against that tamer is the disco bard. Otherwise, why are bards brought in to Yew gate? It's not like they're a great template vs players, is it? They're there because the tamers are there, and there is no alternative in fighting them while they're in guardzone. So without an alternative, the bards are all those reds can use to fight back. See where I'm coming from? There are two sides to a battle, not just the tamers. What alternative is there to discoing a tamer's pets if they hide in guardzone and spam all kill?

The guardzone tamers need fixing and explosure to some risk other than a disco bard if I'm going to support a nerf to bards. There are many many more bards and bard tamers than Yew gate tamers, so I don't see why many should be nerfed to help a few.

Remember, you too can group up with a red and he can kill any bards that annoy you. That's a change which doesn't require nerfing an entire class for the benefit of a handful of gate tamers. Or kill them yourself. I haven't had any fights with bards on my tamers, but I've certainly racked up the kills with them.

Also, while your pets are disco'd, you have skills that you can fight with too. And even a disco'd pet can still do damage. Though I've yet to have a tamer actually fight back when my tamer bard went for their pets. Disappointing really, I keep hoping for a good tamer v tamer lol.

Wenchy

[Kaleb]

That seems fair. They should also allow bards to provoke a players pet on to its master flagging the bard in the fel ruleset to help curb this g-drag and dread mare abuse.

[D'Amavir]

Here we go again. Tell me, because not one of your fellow Yew gate tamers has given me an answer to this, how does a player kill your tamer while they're in guardzone pinging pets onto the surrounding reds? Hmm?



Guardzone tamers should be fixed as well as discorders. Falling back on the 'but they do this so don't fix some other exploit' mentality just means that more things don't get fixed.

I am not a pvp tamer. And I am not a pvp discord bard. I think BOTH of these issues should be fixed, not just one of the other.

And, as always, two wrongs don't make a right. They can't fix everything at once but they can put in fixes here and there. I don't care which one is fixed first as long as both are fixed. That is the attitude that should be had about this subject.

[WarUltima]

Gzone tamers should indeed be fixed. And discording should indeed flag the user.

[weins201]

The effect a disco bard has on a pet is sad and should simply flag the discoer to the tamer as well as the pet that is ALL thats was brought up.

If a tamer sits in guard zone and flags on another blue he is guard whackable, If he sicks his pet on a red the red can go in freely and fight back.

The problem is the bard can disco the pet and just stand there and as long as he/she is there the pet is discoed!

Yew gate is NOT PvP it is a POOR excuse for what once was a great part of this game

Simple if you commit ANY negative act on a pet you SHOULD flag this has been an issue forever LLOOONNNNNGGGGGGG before greater dragons.

If you can provoke a pet on to a tamer then you should also be able to provoke any non tamed creature onto another player, Try that one out for size My bard would RRRUULLLLEEE as I provoke an Untamed Greater onto you in Destard ,, Oh Baby yeah bring it OOOONNNNNNNN.

[Turdnugget]

I've said this before... tamers aren't that hard to kill. The archer tamer w/cu sidhe is more of a pain. I don't use a GD when I do PvP with my tamer (which isn't much anymore)

Let's stop the crying about GD's in PvP for the moment, in this thread...

We're talking about a blue using a curse like spell/skill on another blue. That's the topic here. It should be a flaggable offense. We're NOT talking about how lame it is using a tamer in PvP. That is not the discussion. If you don't want to talk about the DISCORD on a blue pet, then politely stfu.

Most everyone WILL agree that tamers in PvP is weak, lame, ghetto, whatever you want to call it, but thats NOT the discussion right now. I'm sure everyone will agree that what's going on with discord right now is an exploit/cheat/un-fair etc.

And don't talk about 'leave your pet in trammel' BS. Tamers have always been a part of Felucca. Remember before Trammel even existed? There were tamers.

It's true there are a lot more tamers in PvP now but who cares? Learn how to kill them, learn how to stay alive. It's a gimp template just like a mage/necro/scribe who does Omen/Para/Efields or Omen/Exp/FS. There will always been gimp templates, we're talking about an aspect of GAME PLAY that needs to be fixed because in a way it is an EXPLOIT.

[AEowynSP]

Keep your pets in tram where they belong?
We have no tram on siege.

[Kat]

Now, if it is guard whackable i don't care, but they should be able to be attacked by my tamer if they discord my pets. Plain and simple. All I see is naked discoers sitting in the guard zone and running out real quick to discord a pet.

Even if I were to leave the guard zone, most often they are a red group's blue and will generally not be attacked by the reds because they are assisting them, and are often defended by the red group. Also if they leave the GZ and disco my pet, I can't attack them or I'll get a murder count, so they are getting away scott free.

Most everyone will agree this is an exploit and should be fixed, but when?

/Signed

[Sir Kenga]

Sure signed, and same goes for peacemakers (excluding area peacemaking).

[Wenchkin]

Guardzone tamers should be fixed as well as discorders. Falling back on the 'but they do this so don't fix some other exploit' mentality just means that more things don't get fixed.

I am not a pvp tamer. And I am not a pvp discord bard. I think BOTH of these issues should be fixed, not just one of the other.

And, as always, two wrongs don't make a right. They can't fix everything at once but they can put in fixes here and there. I don't care which one is fixed first as long as both are fixed. That is the attitude that should be had about this subject.

Well I don't mind flagging red with green spots if it comes to it, but I'm not accepting that before tamers who have too much power, get their backsides balanced. I have the template ready to go if my bard has to flag to disco and if anything I'll have more fun playing tag with said tamer and my char.

But, as the saying goes, it's not the fall that kills you, it's the ground at the bottom. Same goes with disco. No pet will fall over dead solely because the bard disco'd it. I'll accept a nerf if it comes, but I don't fully agree with the severity of this nerf. I appreciate what you're saying, but I think it's OTT to fully flag a bard for 0 hps of damage lol. But still, if it goes through the tamers around Yew gate will ultimately come off worst, I'm sure bards will be lining up to disco pets :D

Also, who is to say what other aspects of being a bard, particularly a tamer bard will be changed in order to protect these tamers?

Will disco end up making mobs aggro on us so we're really dancing through hoops to disco then provo stuff? Ok, that could lead to a pet playing tag with my bard and work to my advantage in Fel, but in Tram I don't think that would add to the fun of being a bard. Do you?

What about peace, as that has already been complained about by tamers? Tamers will be right back here after disco is changed asking for the same on peace. Then what? I've no intention of adding it to my template, but not all bards shun peace as I do. They'll change disco for peace with the same results. See my logic here? It's not a minor change to barding these tamers are asking for. It'll ripple through the barding profession. And I would like to enjoy playing my bards as much as my tamers. I don't want to ask for the ability to provo a pet on its owner, but I'm being tempted lol.

Wenchy

[Turdnugget]

I don't find peacemaking as much of a pain as disco. Peace, you can simply say all kill again. Just gotta be attentive to when it happens. Disco is different. Ya it does 0 damage. But it is definately a criminal action and tones down whatever pet a whole lot.

Looking at this outside of PvP, it should be flaggable because it is like Curse, Weaken, Feeblemind, Corpse Skin etc. All which will flag you on a blue if casted.

I'm not trying to justify using a pet in PvP, just that disco SHOULD be a flaggable offense just like the other similar spells. Whether it's in PvP on a blue, or in PvM on a blue.

I think the arguement really lies that it's typically someone not even attacking or being attacked by the tamer, but someone aiding the flagged person/red and that bard has no risk at all. I think that's why people get mad about it. There's nothing you can do about it.

I've sat at the GZ w/my pets before, not attacking anyone, and a disco bard keeps my pets under disco... wtf is up with that? It would be like me sitting there casting Curse on blue people at the gate all day w/out any risk of me being able to be attacked.

[Hunters' Moon]

Plain and simple. All I see is naked discoers sitting in the guard zone and running out real quick to discord a pet. If they are in the GZ and disco your pet....that means you are guardzone hugging too does it not? You are a pot calling the kettle black on this one.

[Hunters' Moon]

I don't find peacemaking as much of a pain as disco. Peace, you can simply say all kill again.I see that as an "exploit". 240 skill points negated by saying "all kill"? How pathetic.

[Wenchkin]

Turdnugget, well, as I've said, if it comes to it I'll adapt. But tamers abusing guardzone grates on me, because I don't they're worth changing my chars and playstyle for. They aren't worth that nerf to my chars, y'know? It's like when someone kills you with the lamest tactics ever, you grudge them every gp of your insurance money. And I'm concerned that gate tamers get more power and pull the reputation of tamers down even further. Well, I'm presuming it can go further lol.

As for peacing, I'm not sure they fixed the exploit where a group of peacers could keep pets peaced constantly. If they haven't, I'll maybe be glad to not have a peace char lol. My impression with some gate tamers however is that they don't want anything in their way and will make an awful racket about the injustice of risk, even if they're taking none.

I've never supported bards who just disco for the sake of it, I wait until a tamer puts on the appropriate display when I'm at the gate with my thief, I'm not changing chars to disco unnecessarily. Not had my pets disco'd, but then my main girl seems to be well-respected in Fel (must be all the swampie resing over the years :D) and she never works Yew gate, so that might be it... I dunno. Folks just outright attack me or my pets rather than disco, which suits me fine because I don't collect counts on them if by fluke I win :D

Wenchy

[Turdnugget]

It's not often, at least when i'm on my shard, that somebody will have their friend log on their blue disco toon just to disco the pets. But it is annoying. I've stopped using my tamer as it's more of a pain in the arse killing someone that way as there is a lot more hacks going on that you're easily outran on foot.

The issue is the whole blue using an offensive spell on a blue.

I think it's one of those things that the devs have overlooked for sometime.

And Hunters, I wouldn't call that an exploit, more of a lack of Dev support and looking things through before it's implemented. Even if it's for a split second that you peace a player, or a pet, that's sometimes long enough to do more damage to make them run, you get away, or get a kill shot. And there's always the chance that the person doesn't realize they or their pet has been peaced. There's one person on my shard, an archer, who has peacemaking and is a pain in the nuts to fight due to his constant peacemaking. I was just stating that Disco is more of a pita than peacemaking is.

[dukarlo]

Id be all for flagging a bard for using discord on a pet as long as a bard was given the abilty to provo a pet onto its master(also flagging the bard). Id like to see someone show me a single bard that has any other use in pvp. The fact is if discord flags a bard under current rules its nothing but another boost to tamers and we certainly dont need that. Bards have almost no defense or offensive abilty and should be the natural opposite to a tamer in pvp.

[Blesh]

Oh no, tamers have something slightly hard for them...

:violin:
whaaaaa

get out of the guard zone, and your all set.

[Viper09]

get out of the guard zone, and your all set.

Ugh, you know, being out of guard zone wont stop them from being discorded......................................... .................and it wont make the discorders flag.................................and not everyone uses greater dragons.............but then again, you didn't really think before you posted did you......

[laurlo]

agreed

http://tinyurl.com/547sfa/.gif (http://tinyurl.com/3rqa7s)http://tinyurl.com/4jn2c9/.gif (http://tinyurl.com/3odc7a)http://tinyurl.com/4ob8g6/.gif (http://tinyurl.com/545b84)http://tinyurl.com/54z6aq/.gif (http://tinyurl.com/498g5r)

[Eht/Longbow]

Oh no, tamers have something slightly hard for them...


whaaaaa

get out of the guard zone, and your all set.

Have you even read this thread?

If you have something to say then please directly address a comment and add to the disgussion and make some sense about it. Anyone who can not back up their claims properly deserve to have the problem, which was leaning in their favor, removed from them entirely.

Most everyone seems to think that every single little thing in the game that makes it harder for tamers is good because "the game is easy in every way for a tamer". I'll have you know, it is not easy; I use a tamer/mage and I do everything the hard way by choice. I spent years building the stupid thing, and when a BUG totally debilitates me and causes my pets to die without a fair fight gives me a LOT of work. The mere fact I've stuck to it to see this BUG as a neusence should give me reason enough to want it fixed.

Also I noticed in your signiture that YOU DON'T EVEN PLAY UO!

[Zyon Rockler]

Sounds like there is something wrong with the guard system if it can be exploited so easily. I think some of the problem is that the guard out right kills you. What should happen is guards should be posted and walking around when a criminal act occurs a person yells Guards.

The guards come running, they don't port in and they begin to attack the criminal. The criminal runs, if they get away from the guard they are free. If the guard almost kills them, they are then taken into custody and ported to a jail cell, where the guard stands outside the cell for 3 minutes and then walks away, leaving you to escape. Also, the guards should be able to be killed.

There could be a few guards posted in the guard zone area that either walk or ride horses, maybe even ones that have pets to help keep the peace. Ocassionaly players could be killed by the guards if attacked by maybe more than 1.

This should stop people from staying in any given area and thinking they are safe because of the guards because the guards would be vulnerable.

Also, I think if anyone does anything to anyone in any negative way it should be a criminal act. I even feel if you disco a pet you should have to be closer to it. I would like to see bards given power in PvP to peace and discord players. Maybe just not so much that their power makes the game unbalanced.

[Cynic]

Now, if it is guard whackable i don't care, but they should be able to be attacked by my tamer if they discord my pets. Plain and simple. All I see is naked discoers sitting in the guard zone and running out real quick to discord a pet.

Even if I were to leave the guard zone, most often they are a red group's blue and will generally not be attacked by the reds because they are assisting them, and are often defended by the red group. Also if they leave the GZ and disco my pet, I can't attack them or I'll get a murder count, so they are getting away scott free.

Most everyone will agree this is an exploit and should be fixed, but when?

I will continue to sit with my instrument and discord all the pet's I see in felluca to my hearts intent. Wanna know why?

Because Tamer PvP is dumb! You sick a pet on a target and run 3 screens in the opposite direction.

You want a change to discorders? Fine..

-NO Petball summoning after an "All Kill"
-NO saving a pet with a logout after an "All Kill"
-Once you dismount your Cu/Dread and order it to kill then you cannot re-mount until it has killed its target or it has died.
-Ninja forms should take up a follower slot.
-Tamers required to have vet in order to PvP with pets.
-The list goes on.

Tamers do an absurd amount of dmg with pets and within a hint of trouble most tamers can high tale in wolf form or re-mount their Cu/Dread and save themselves and their pets.

[Eht/Longbow]

I will continue to sit with my instrument and discord all the pet's I see in felluca to my hearts intent. Wanna know why?

Because Tamer PvP is dumb! You sick a pet on a target and run 3 screens in the opposite direction.

You want a change to discorders? Fine..

-NO Petball summoning after an "All Kill"
-NO saving a pet with a logout after an "All Kill"
-Once you dismount your Cu/Dread and order it to kill then you cannot re-mount until it has killed its target or it has died.
-Ninja forms should take up a follower slot.
-Tamers required to have vet in order to PvP with pets.
-The list goes on.

Tamers do an absurd amount of dmg with pets and within a hint of trouble most tamers can high tale in wolf form or re-mount their Cu/Dread and save themselves and their pets.

Did you not read the rest of the thread either? First, I do not use the same tactics as most tamers do, so your argument does not stand, second tamers are a fully accredited template in the game and versitile in pvp, and thus they should be subject to balancing, as should other templates against them. I can hit you with a HLD/HLA weapon and lower your ability to hit me, but I have to HIT YOU FIRST, thus giving you the ability to hit me back. This should be addressed with discordance.

Second, I AM NOT talking about changes to tamers, nor changes to anything else, simply this single bug. If I were talking about that would talk about how I was at the Yew gate with a small purple bunny from last easter and valentines day, no other pet, I was mage pvping, and someone shot it, I could not call the guards on them though it was sitting in the middle of the guard zone next to the gate, but am I complaining about the bug that lets people shoot pets where reconciliation is impossible? No! I am talking about discordance period. I could care less about the guard zone, I care that I can't attack someone who does me a negative act without me getting a count if I do attack them.

I wish people would stop assuming and start opening their eyes.

[Harlequin]

If they are in the GZ and disco your pet....that means you are guardzone hugging too does it not? You are a pot calling the kettle black on this one.

That's exactly what I was thinking when I read the post, in a much much more polite way.

Discord has a 12 sec timer, it breaks when the pet is about 12 tiles away (depending on the bard's skill), or if either of them breaks line of sight (invis, hide, gate out then come back). If you move far enough away from the bard, he/she will have to follow you away from the GZ to keep the discord up. If so, they can be attacked unless the tamer is also unwilling to leave the GZ.

A discorded GD is still pretty strong. If you are dealing with 1 other opponent, it should still be pretty balanced. If you are outnumbered or dealing with a gank waiting for you once you step outside the gate, I'm afraid you have to bring other friends to even the odds. Having a GD doesn't mean that you are now a Rambo army and can take on an entire platoon.

There's also this matter of the tamer not being flagged correctly if they command pets to attack. I think this begs more attention if not fixed yet.

[Turdnugget]

Harlequin with what you're saying, you're pretty much saying that it's ok for a 1v1 situation between a tamer and a red to turn into a 1v2 situation with a tamer , the red and a bard discording the tamer's pet. Yet only ONE of them is attackable/criminal. Where's the balance/justice in that?

Might as well allow blues to keep corpse skin/curse on other blue players while a red is attacking them just because that blue has a better weapon than the red.

EVERYONE freakin' knows that tamer PvP is kinda weak. We know that already. We're not trying to give more power to the tamer.

People get all hopped up about EXPLOITS and how they need to be fixed. This is essentially the same freakin' thing.

I remember way back when when you could kill town guards... I remember sitting at Minoc bank and someone came and DP'd a guard and killed it. Funniest thing ever.

Quit complaining about tamers in PvP. They're not the only gimp template out there. They're just as bad as an archer's concussion blow or the oh so gimp evil omen (w/hardly ANY cast time) exp/fs.

[Harlequin]

Harlequin with what you're saying, you're pretty much saying that it's ok for a 1v1 situation between a tamer and a red to turn into a 1v2 situation with a tamer , the red and a bard discording the tamer's pet. Yet only ONE of them is attackable/criminal. Where's the balance/justice in that?

Might as well allow blues to keep corpse skin/curse on other blue players while a red is attacking them just because that blue has a better weapon than the red.

EVERYONE freakin' knows that tamer PvP is kinda weak. We know that already. We're not trying to give more power to the tamer.

People get all hopped up about EXPLOITS and how they need to be fixed. This is essentially the same freakin' thing.

I remember way back when when you could kill town guards... I remember sitting at Minoc bank and someone came and DP'd a guard and killed it. Funniest thing ever.

Quit complaining about tamers in PvP. They're not the only gimp template out there. They're just as bad as an archer's concussion blow or the oh so gimp evil omen (w/hardly ANY cast time) exp/fs.

I'm afraid you misunderstood me. I meant get the tamer away from the bard to render his participation useless. If the bard gives chase outside the GZ, sic the GD on him (or attack him with the tamer). If the OP is outnumbered, bring friends to even the odds.

Actually some people would probably already argue that a tamer with a pet = a 2 man team. Coz techinically, albeit difficult, the tamer can engage the bard (both tamer and bard are down 2-3 skills) while the dragon engages the second person.

[Turdnugget]

Well if the bard follows the tamer out of the GZ, then the tamer has to, more often than not, go grey. Making them vulnerable to anyone's attack at that time.

Ya a tamer technically is already a 2 man team. But tamers aren't that hard to kill.

It just seems unfair that a blue can in a way cause harm to another blue w/out being flagged for it. Wouldn't you go grey in Fel if you disco'd a unicorn? I know that in Ilsh it pops up the crimmy action gump when attacking one... haven't tried it using disco though.

[Harlequin]

Well if the bard follows the tamer out of the GZ, then the tamer has to, more often than not, go grey. Making them vulnerable to anyone's attack at that time.

Ya a tamer technically is already a 2 man team. But tamers aren't that hard to kill.

It just seems unfair that a blue can in a way cause harm to another blue w/out being flagged for it. Wouldn't you go grey in Fel if you disco'd a unicorn? I know that in Ilsh it pops up the crimmy action gump when attacking one... haven't tried it using disco though.


True, attacking the bard will definitely flag the tamer grey. But it's not fair that the tamer doesn't get flagged for getting his pets' to attack others either, do you agree?

Actually, disco doesn't tag the bard as an aggressor or grey, since it's not a direct attack.

Same way getting pets to attack doesn't flag the tamer.

So in this case, imho, it's pretty fair.

Also bards aren't hard to kill either. At the minimum, they'll need music and disco to discord the GD. The tamer would at the minimum, need Taming and lore to control the GD. Both are down 2 skills at minimum. So I would say it's still an even match skillwise. (for best effect, tamer would probably pack vet, and the bard pack peace, so it's still an even match)

If there are other unfriendlies at the gate that can potentially join in against the tamer, just bring friends to even it out.

[Wenchkin]

It's not often, at least when i'm on my shard, that somebody will have their friend log on their blue disco toon just to disco the pets. But it is annoying. I've stopped using my tamer as it's more of a pain in the arse killing someone that way as there is a lot more hacks going on that you're easily outran on foot.

The issue is the whole blue using an offensive spell on a blue.

I think it's one of those things that the devs have overlooked for sometime.
I think there are several reasons why it's been left as is.

Firstly the fact that it's the best attack against a tamer hiding in the guardzone and "balances" them, at least vaguely.

Secondly that changing just the flagging of a bard for a specific action vs a pet isn't as easy as it seems. Or that some of my concerns are realistic and the code for flagging v a pet would have to lead to other, less desirable events for all bards and tamer bards.

It would be useful to have some clarification on this from Jeremy and the team on matters like this.

Wenchy

[Rix/\]

Then bards should be able to peace, provo, and discord other players in fel then

[Wenchkin]

Most everyone seems to think that every single little thing in the game that makes it harder for tamers is good because "the game is easy in every way for a tamer". I'll have you know, it is not easy; I use a tamer/mage and I do everything the hard way by choice. I spent years building the stupid thing, and when a BUG totally debilitates me and causes my pets to die without a fair fight gives me a LOT of work. The mere fact I've stuck to it to see this BUG as a neusence should give me reason enough to want it fixed.
Trust me, I've taken years to train and work my tamer up and she hasn't done anything gimpy or abusive in her life. I know where you're coming from exactly. And the last thing I want is for those tamers who do put in the work to be punished. That said, I think as tamers we'd be best served getting those bad eggs out of our profession and behaving as honourably as we can given how visible the tamer is in game. Because without those bad guardzone tamers, there'd be far fewer bards clearing up the mess. PvPers would have their PvP templates out, not their bards and you'd be far less likely to have a pet disco'd at all.

Wenchy

[Blesh]

Ugh, you know, being out of guard zone wont stop them from being discorded......................................... .................and it wont make the discorders flag.................................and not everyone uses greater dragons.............but then again, you didn't really think before you posted did you......


my point is simple. dont pvp near a guard zone, and TADA!!!! blue bards cant discord your pets safely!!

its a simple concept really.

[Viper09]

my point is simple. dont pvp near a guard zone, and TADA!!!! blue bards cant discord your pets safely!!

its a simple concept really.

No it's a horrible concept. Your assuming that stepping outside the guard zone is dangerous and that all tamers are in the guard zone, which is far from the case, lmao. It's not hard for a bard to run around in guard zone or not and discord at will. If the bard is killed, guess what, the pet was already discorded. And naturally, they can easily come back.

There are also those pvp/pk guilds that have their own bards that can simply come and discord. Your point is written horribly.

[Blesh]

No it's a horrible concept. Your assuming that stepping outside the guard zone is dangerous and that all tamers are in the guard zone, which is far from the case, lmao. It's not hard for a bard to run around in guard zone or not and discord at will. If the bard is killed, guess what, the pet was already discorded. And naturally, they can easily come back.

There are also those pvp/pk guilds that have their own bards that can simply come and discord. Your point is written horribly.

maybe you fail to understand my point of view here.

the problem is bards can discord from guard zone, and be protected by guards becuase they dont flag.

i dont mean step outside of guard zone, i mean dont fight NEAR a guard zone.

no guards to protect the bard, yeah you take a count, but it was always my understanding that if you didnt want to take counts you dont belong in fel.

simple, did you understand it that time? or do i need to explain it agian?

[Gwendar-SP]

Stop using Greater Drags at the yew gate as your exclusive PvP ability.

If there were no greater drags this wouldn't be an issue.


This problem existed long before greater dragons. I stopped making instruments after a bard got my BLUE beetle killed by discording it.

/signed

[Eht/Longbow]

no guards to protect the bard, yeah you take a count, but it was always my understanding that if you didnt want to take counts you dont belong in fel.



Bull puckey, there are lots of reasons to stay blue in this game, it's the way you play the game. I don't have to and don't want to be red period, I am not a murderer, if you want to play a murderer that is your deal. I also have many characters I take to Fel to fight play and live in fel, being red should and does put a inability to do many things in the game.

All you are saying is, "I want to get away with murder so you should be red too, otherwise get out", that does two things here; one, you are a very limited thinker; two, you don't have any respect for other people who don't think PvP is everything in UO. I am one of many people who actually play the WHOLE game, with many characters in many different ways. I have taken my warrior swordman to Lady M, as well as my tamer and Bush Archer, heck even my mage.

I can gather the dread horn keys and kill Irks and whatever in the dangerous area of twisted weald, without leading, because my tamer knows how to survive. If I took counts because of a stupid bug in the game it would severely limit my ability to do things with my character, PvP is not EVERYTHING, open your mind and play the game.

[Blesh]

Bull puckey, there are lots of reasons to stay blue in this game, it's the way you play the game. I don't have to and don't want to be red period, I am not a murderer, if you want to play a murderer that is your deal. I also have many characters I take to Fel to fight play and live in fel, being red should and does put a inability to do many things in the game.

All you are saying is, "I want to get away with murder so you should be red too, otherwise get out", that does two things here; one, you are a very limited thinker; two, you don't have any respect for other people who don't think PvP is everything in UO. I am one of many people who actually play the WHOLE game, with many characters in many different ways. I have taken my warrior swordman to Lady M, as well as my tamer and Bush Archer, heck even my mage.

I can gather the dread horn keys and kill Irks and whatever in the dangerous area of twisted weald, without leading, because my tamer knows how to survive. If I took counts because of a stupid bug in the game it would severely limit my ability to do things with my character, PvP is not EVERYTHING, open your mind and play the game.


truth be told, pvp was always my weak side of the game. I dabbled a little with pvp, but it was never my main focus when it came to UO. What I take from this whole thing is, there are plenty of ways to adapt to pvp, and its a constant adaptation from what i have seen. as far as being open to all aspects, I am open. But something as simple as changing your pvp location fixes this problem. Most people PVP is groups yes? You dont have one red that could kill a bard? you cant afford to take one count to kill a bard?

If you dont, sorry about your luck, sucks to be you. :(

[Ailish]

Discorders should flag as attacker, red or blue, period - not just on blues. All the same flagging rules should apply.

[Viper09]

maybe you fail to understand my point of view here.

the problem is bards can discord from guard zone, and be protected by guards becuase they dont flag.

i dont mean step outside of guard zone, i mean dont fight NEAR a guard zone.

no guards to protect the bard, yeah you take a count, but it was always my understanding that if you didnt want to take counts you dont belong in fel.

simple, did you understand it that time? or do i need to explain it agian?

Guards protecting discorders is only half the problem. The rest of the problem is that discording blue pets does not flag the discorder. And guess what, not everyone wants to have to keep killing the discorder and getting counts all the time. Not everyone likes getting counts like you apparently do. Some tamers do not prefer to go red, and some do not want to have to log off, switch on their red to kill one bard just to get back on their tamer after that same bard has resed.

[Blesh]

Guards protecting discorders is only half the problem. The rest of the problem is that discording blue pets does not flag the discorder. And guess what, not everyone wants to have to keep killing the discorder and getting counts all the time. Not everyone likes getting counts like you apparently do. Some tamers do not prefer to go red, and some do not want to have to log off, switch on their red to kill one bard just to get back on their tamer after that same bard has resed.

yeah, apparently they would much rather jump on stratics and cry.

lets agree to disagree. You think it needs nerfed, I think its fine, EA can decide what needs done. becuase well, they are so awesome at making game changing decisions.

[Hunters' Moon]

As for peacing, I'm not sure they fixed the exploit where a group of peacers could keep pets peaced constantly. If they haven't, I'll maybe be glad to not have a peace char lol. My impression with some gate tamers however is that they don't want anything in their way and will make an awful racket about the injustice of risk, even if they're taking none.

Wenchy


It all depends on what you see as a "group". If I came against you and your g-dragon with say,5 legendary peacers,that group of six should wipe the floor against you. I do say "should" because who knows...tamers can spam "all kill" which makes peacing the dragon useless/pointless.

[Arch Magus]

Discorders should flag as attacker, red or blue, period - not just on blues. All the same flagging rules should apply.

This sums it up.

Why is the discussion still continuing? Who could argue against this?
G-Dragons arent the only things getting discorded.

[Viper09]

Ok, I have a question.

I don't have a bard, so I am wondering:
Does discord on an un-tamed creature flag you on them, as in considered an attack?

[Blesh]

Ok, I have a question.

I don't have a bard, so I am wondering:
Does discord on an un-tamed creature flag you on them, as in considered an attack?

No, It doesn't

[Viper09]

No, It doesn't

Ahh, okies. Explains a lot :p

[Anakena]

.

no guards to protect the bard, yeah you take a count, but it was always my understanding that if you didnt want to take counts you dont belong in fel.



That is a more general statement. In UO you are free to do what you want, provided it is within the rules ofc. In felluca people are free to go red or stay blue. It is a choice, but no one should be forced to make this choice, so I cannot agree with the quoted sentence.

[Radun]

/SIGNED

if you can't discord blue pets in tram ruleset, why isn't it an aggressive act in fel ruleset?


p.s. having said that, greater dragons need a pvp nerf too

[Vyal]

I made a post like this some time ago and people called me crazy. All I said was I would be the onyl blue at fel gate surrounded by twenty reds. Granted I would die plenty of times but I could also attack one red lore him into guard zone then kill him while all his other zerg buddies watched or got guard wacked some how some way.

But then along comes the stupid discord peacer as I am right in the middle of a fight with someone. So my pet becomes discorded and peaced starts walkign away and I literraly cant do anything he doesnt listen it just walks out of the guard zone into the blades of the twenty reds waiting for it while discorded he dies and I am left in the guard zone helpless with a gimp little balanced heavy bow and some pots the discorder is sitting there laughing as I die :/

You tell me why that discorder didnt go grey as he attacked my pet cuased it to die and cuased me to die?

I know alot of people gonna cry oooo oooo but dragons are to hard for me, ya your just to stupid to carry a dragon slayer with you.

[Blesh]

/SIGNED

if you can't discord blue pets in tram ruleset, why isn't it an aggressive act in fel ruleset?


p.s. having said that, greater dragons need a pvp nerf too


Non tamed blue monsters can be discorded without flagging. Tamed blue pets
Can't be discorded in tram becuase its a tram ruleset. Much the same as you can't attack a blue player in tram but can in fel. You view is flawed.

[Turdnugget]

Blesh, how do you propose killing said bard if he/she is guard sitting too? They have no risk of flagging so they can sit in the GZ all day discording any pet that walks through the gate.

Not everyone fights in groups. Not everyone has the ability to sit outside the GZ while 5 reds sit outside and wait due to the reds being ready with omen/para/efields etc because some people are kill on sight.

Typically if there's a group of reds sitting outside the GZ, and I show up on most any of my characters, 95% of the time they will attack/gank. So my only safety to pick them off one by one is by sitting in the GZ and weeding them out, killing them one by one. Now how would a tamer, who is very vulnerable, be able to sit outside the GZ while a bard discords their pet? Sure they can kill the bard, thus flagging the tamer who didn't want to have a free for all attack on the tamer.

I've said it once ,i'll say it again, discord is just like Curse, Clumsy, Feeblemind etc... It's an offensive attack spell/skill and should flag just the same as the others. You don't see a blue mage casting Curse on a GD in the GZ w/out flagging do you? Same idea.

[Lord Gareth]

Now, if it is guard whackable i don't care, but they should be able to be attacked by my tamer if they discord my pets. Plain and simple. All I see is naked discoers sitting in the guard zone and running out real quick to discord a pet.

Even if I were to leave the guard zone, most often they are a red group's blue and will generally not be attacked by the reds because they are assisting them, and are often defended by the red group. Also if they leave the GZ and disco my pet, I can't attack them or I'll get a murder count, so they are getting away scott free.

Most everyone will agree this is an exploit and should be fixed, but when?

I don't care about the PvP aspect. I hunt the fel areas and always some jack off discoing my pets being annoying trying to get them and me killed. As for the guy who posted "Keep them in tram where they belong" They were in fel before they were in tram. :-P

[Lord Gareth]

/SIGNED

if you can't discord blue pets in tram ruleset, why isn't it an aggressive act in fel ruleset?


p.s. having said that, greater dragons need a pvp nerf too


Non tamed blue monsters can be discorded without flagging. Tamed blue pets
Can't be discorded in tram becuase its a tram ruleset. Much the same as you can't attack a blue player in tram but can in fel. You view is flawed.

Your view is Flawed. By telling him his view if Flawed

You can't attack a blue in tram but in fel turns you grey.

You can't disco/attack a pet in tram but in fel you can and stay blue.

It should be an aggresive attack in fel because it is looked at like that in tram. Thats why you cannot do it. Disco is just like a mage casting curse or weaken or what not on you.

[Sarphus]

Discord should combat flag you against red or grey pets too.

[Wenchkin]

Blesh, how do you propose killing said bard if he/she is guard sitting too? They have no risk of flagging so they can sit in the GZ all day discording any pet that walks through the gate.
But some of those guardzone tamers sit there spamming all kill and nuking reds all day. So I don't think in that case the tamer is in the position to say "the bards should be nerfed" when he's sitting pretty. If the tamer wasn't there in that secure position, the bard would have no need to be there.

Not everyone fights in groups. Not everyone has the ability to sit outside the GZ while 5 reds sit outside and wait due to the reds being ready with omen/para/efields etc because some people are kill on sight.
I don't fight in groups and nor do I take down 5 folks single-handed. I don't expect to, and nor should I. That's crazy! Now if I can't control the odds when a group attack me out PvMing in Fel, why should you be able to control the odds at Yew gate? Controlled fights are for Tram guild wars, I don't think they have any place in Fel.

Typically if there's a group of reds sitting outside the GZ, and I show up on most any of my characters, 95% of the time they will attack/gank. So my only safety to pick them off one by one is by sitting in the GZ and weeding them out, killing them one by one. Now how would a tamer, who is very vulnerable, be able to sit outside the GZ while a bard discords their pet? Sure they can kill the bard, thus flagging the tamer who didn't want to have a free for all attack on the tamer.
You can't fight those odds. Guess what I'd do. I don't fight at Yew gate. If I see a group I can't handle bearing down on me, I either fight anyway or use my sneak skills to stealth past them, get to safety and summon my pets. If the odds are more favourable, I'll dig in and fight. And I'm never using the guardzone in a fight, I accept the risks to myself and the pets I control and that's it. Which IMO is what being a tamer in Fel ought to be about. You can't be worried about death as a tamer in Fel, you're the gank of the day for everyone. Which is why it doesn't suit every PvPer to be a tamer.

I've said it once ,i'll say it again, discord is just like Curse, Clumsy, Feeblemind etc... It's an offensive attack spell/skill and should flag just the same as the others. You don't see a blue mage casting Curse on a GD in the GZ w/out flagging do you? Same idea.
Yep, and until that tamer in guardzone is dealt with, the bard flagging shouldn't change. I've also said this stacks of times too: even if the bard flags it won't change a thing. Your pets will be disco'd, they will get killed and the bard can operate with zero insurance costs if they choose. You'll also find far more bards want to attack your pets if you just got them nerfed. But keeping these discussions up only encourages me to train up my Fel bard in preparation for this change. Just might be worth considering there are many more disco bards than Yew gate tamers. i personally wouldn't want to incur their wrath with a nerf :D

Wenchy

[Turdnugget]

Usually when I'm outnumbered at Yew gate, I use my archer/macer instead. It's a lot easier to single people out and kill them than it is with my tamer.

Tamer gate PvP is definately different from shard to shard. It's not as bad on Baja as it is on Chessy or Sonoma. Two shards i've started to play on.

Back before item warfare came out, I could take 5 people on with my mage. Can't really do that anymore with how buffed up things have gotten.

Even w/out using a tamer at Yew gate on a blue it's hard not to use the GZ if you're not friended to some house due to the mad ganks that do occur. And it cracks me up when the reds talk trash about GZ sitting yet they're the ones who will all para/efield gank you the minute you step out to go and fight someone.

I think they need to do away with the new house rules where you can't run onto someone's steps or into their house if the door is open. Those were some of the funnest times in PvP when you were fighting a pack of reds in their house and you ran in and killed them in their own house.

Even if I didn't have a tamer i'd say the disco thing needs to be fixed. And if they fix it, it will change things because then the bard will be flagged and the tamer can then attempt to kill them =) The part about it that sucks is that someone is using an offensive spell/skill against a blue which you can't retaliate against. If a tamer attacks a red from the guardzone there is nothing stopping the red from killing said tamer. If a blue discords a tamer's pet, the tamer can't freely attack the blue bard w/out taking a count or going grey. Not to mention if the tamer does attack the bard, there's no running to the GZ, or a house and is now free to be killed by bystanders.

There's no risk for the bard. At all. Other than being called names. If a tamer attacks a red, there is a risk. If a red attacks a tamer, there is a risk. If a blue bard discords a blue pet, there is no risk. Where's the justice in that?

[Blesh]

Your view is Flawed. By telling him his view if Flawed

You can't attack a blue in tram but in fel turns you grey.

You can't disco/attack a pet in tram but in fel you can and stay blue.

It should be an aggresive attack in fel because it is looked at like that in tram. Thats why you cannot do it. Disco is just like a mage casting curse or weaken or what not on you.


no its not. you can discord a guildmates green pet in tram without flagging. you can discord blue wild pets without flagging. in tram you cant discord blue players pets becuase its tram ruleset, didnt i just say that?

[Wenchkin]

What if you had a bard, or bard tamer, and you were thinking like I was, that flagging might not be so isolated in the game code? What if flagging the bard leads to consequences where it affects a LOT of players unconnected to the Fel Yew gate scene? I'm thinking numbers and thinking the greater number of players should be able to have fun, not nerfed to safeguard a minority.

And not once have I seen a suggestion for nerfing the guardzone tamer antics I've sat and watched, or even how I should kill them. It's not as if I haven't asked - every thread I ask and not once has there been an answer. The more this is brough up the more I believe the bards are the only real balance vs these tamers. Which means, in the absence of a better fix, the bards have to stay. By all means suggest a fix for the tamers, but don't ask for the bards to be fixed first. That's only going to make every tamer's life miserable in Fel. If we get more power you can rest assured we'll get ganked snotless.

So I'm not getting onboard here until I'm sure that there won't be unwanted side-effects beyond discoing someone else's pet and I want to see some solution to tamers hiding in guardzone. Fixes need to be implemented properly, not thrown like sticking plasters and screwing up the game for innocent players. I think we have enough messed up systems in UO without adding barding to the list.

Wenchy